Windows - Linux usability

[Belisarius]

Shoot - I was busy being a geek and missed this thread. If it's not too late, I'd like to toss in my points for Linux being user-unfriendly:

Dependencies - this is a fundamental flaw of the OS. The whole thing is dependent on a number of different projects that release at different times. The result is there's no stable codebasee against which a generation of apps can be built for easy install. Hence the "rpm hunt" when you try to install a new version of an application - a new application wants the new versions of the various applications it depends on.

Cross-distribution binaries - Frequently binaries are published for only one or two distributions, and even then they're usually for specific versions. If I go to RPMFind.net, I usually can only get binaries of the latest software only for the latest version of RedHat. If I'm running Fedora Core 3, I can't get the latest software. If I'm running Slackware, I'm relegated to the popular binaries to be found on Slackware's site.

Drivers - I just tried to install the nVidia drivers on RedHat FC5 and it was a pain. I tried to install them on Ubuntu and it was an even bigger pain. When a person gets a new piece of hardware that needs drivers, it shouldn't require real system-administration skills.

Linux has made strides on the user-friendly front, but it's still not there yet.

[DJMaze]

The issue of libraries is actualy very simple: get rid of the versioning check.
Why? Well most libraries don't get new features in one day, so checking for a major version release only should be more then sufficient.

[Belisarius]

Originally Posted by DJMaze

The issue of libraries is actualy very simple: get rid of the versioning check..

Do any major distributions do this?

[redhead]

Since this thread was turning way, way off the first issue with krissygrl having a goal, I've split the thread up.

[AssKoala]

Originally Posted by DJMaze

The issue of libraries is actualy very simple: get rid of the versioning check.
Why? Well most libraries don't get new features in one day, so checking for a major version release only should be more then sufficient.

That's not really a solution, its a way around a problem that has problems in and of itself.

Library minor version updates can contain bug fixes, security fixes, and a host of other changes. If you ignore that, then you can end up having things seemingly work but they can end up unstable or insecure -- it puts a heavier burden on the administrator of the computer.

I actually agree with everything Belisarius said. Though I don't have any problems installing the nvidia drivers, that's only due to the experience of having gone through those problems in the past.

[teknomage1]

So I guess the summary of the thread to date
1) Linux is easy enough to use - once configured
2) Administrating Linux is a total bitch?

[DJMaze]

Originally Posted by AssKoala

Library minor version updates can contain bug fixes, security fixes, and a host of other changes. If you ignore that, then you can end up having things seemingly work but they can end up unstable or insecure -- it puts a heavier burden on the administrator of the computer.

Say you build software using libstdc++ 3.0 but the user his computer has 3.4.6
This means his version probably has bug and security fixes but it's not for me as developer to force the user to use 3.0 nor 3.4.6.
This deal is handled properly by microsoft: MAJOR.x.x has new functions and x.x only has fixes. Windows 2000 and XP use 5.x versions of the core library and 98/ME/NT uses 4.x

So as software developer you should be able to detect the library version and either use the new functionality or workaround it instead of dying a horrible death saying the user his libs are outdated.

M$ knows this because they stand with the fact that 90% of the world population can't work with computers so let alone administrating/updating it.

Shure both OS now have an update agent to do it for you, but they are always behind your incredible ideas and libraries which are newer then their system can ever provide that fast.

So yes teknomage his summary is good but to short for ever being usefull since it's a matter between design and usebaility.

[AssKoala]

Originally Posted by DJMaze

This means his version probably has bug and security fixes but it's not for me as developer to force the user to use 3.0 nor 3.4.6.

Generally the case is the other way around, at least in my experience. Most dependency checks are based on checking for "at least" version not a nazi rule like "is version".

Seems like you're looking too much into the version numbers, they are fairly arbitrary.

Originally Posted by teknomage1

So I guess the summary of the thread to date
1) Linux is easy enough to use - once configured
2) Administrating Linux is a total bitch?

Administration of Linux (or *nix in general) is both a bitch and cakewalk, depending on what you're doing. It's significantly easier to setup a Windows box to be a workstation than a *nix box -- library dependency hell and such will kill *nix setup ease.

For servers, things change up. Depending on the tasks, you'll be going both ways. Active Directory and Exchange are favorites for IT departments who are skilled with both the *nix and Windows variants. However, it'll usually boil down to what they know best.

I have no problem navigating and configuring my FreeBSD: hell, I find it easier to configure and mantain than my Server 2003 box in many cases. Of course, the opposite can be true: it definitely takes much more work to setup a shared folder/network drive in (most) *nixes than in Server 2003. GUI tools and major distributions are working on reaching MS's "Wizard" ease of use.

[teknomage1]

I look at the linux development environment as a sort of primordial soup from which systems rise and fall in an evolutionary dance. t makes Linux this sort of software avatar of choas that can be solidified into a cohesive whole every few months.
I think often it can be solved by choosing a regular upgrade cycle for your working libraries - say until version X of my software is done it will stick to features provided by version Y of some library.
And for big packages like glibc and such, security and bug fixes are almost always ported back to older versions of the software.

[teknomage1]

Which operating system really is easier to install? http://www.davefancella.com/node/12

[AssKoala]

Originally Posted by teknomage1

Which operating system really is easier to install? http://www.davefancella.com/node/12

Heck, I'd say the easiest OS to install is Mandrake or some other "easy" Linux like Ubuntu or Xandros. Of course, that's driven by the need to get people to actually use the OS.

Windows isn't meant to be installed by the average user -- it's tough to make a claim that the OS isntallation is part of ease of use. Not to mention, the recovery cd's that come with computer systems like Dell's or Compaqs are even easier to install than any *nix distribution. Drop the cd in the drive and some time later it boots into a fresh install.

On a side note, it's hard to bother taking anything that link says seriously considering the color scheme....

[DJMaze]

@tekno: funny article and it definatly is as the guy is telling us.

My Windows 2000 has never had working sound unless i installed drivers.
My CentOS works flawless but had to dive into the sound driver to turn on the volume of my three soundcards (the 4th will not work cos there's no driver for it, a Marian)

[AssKoala]

Originally Posted by DJMaze

My Windows 2000 has never had working sound unless i installed drivers.
My CentOS works flawless but had to dive into the sound driver to turn on the volume of my three soundcards (the 4th will not work cos there's no driver for it, a Marian)

That's a silly thing to make an argument about. You can install additional drivers to the Windows cd, and I generally do, -- but Microsoft can't include drivers on the cd that didn't exist when the cd was made (seeing as sound is a big one here). Drivers get smaller updates with the SP releases, but that's like complaining that RedHat 8.0 didn't come with drivers for a 7800GTX.

[DJMaze]

Raising this thread from the dead

I use Linux as my primairy system nowadays, because i understand Linux enough to work with it on a daily basis.
A computer at work that runs Vista decided me to take the full switch.

Issues: Yes, just as i had with Windows
Stable: Just as stable as my old Windows 2k
Work: massively improved

So i think my conclusion is simple: It just depends where you use your pile of sand for.

[teknomage1]

Arg, this thread makes me look like an ass.